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Talk:Judaism

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Please link all chapter and verse references to the specific passage on Biblegateway.com

http://www.biblegateway.com/

i withdrew a link

I withdrew the link around "hebrew bible" and renamed it "Jewish Bible" because it was linked to the christian bible which has more books and is divided differently.

Amenyahu (25 April 2006)

My edits 25th April 2006

I have done some minor edits, correcting spelling mistakes and capitalisations. However, there is a chance that a few of them may not have been mistakes, but have been there for a reason. If AmenYahu or someone would like to review my changes and revert any that I got wrong, I would appreciate it. And while there, I noticed that "Sages and Rabbis" is capitalised in one spot and not in the next paragraph. Is there a reason for this inconsistency? If not, that is another correction that can be made. Philip J. Rayment 09:25, 25 April 2006 (GMT)

Your edits were fine

Thanks for letting me know. The edits were fine. Thanks for letting me know about the Sages and sages.

By the way, it's Amenyahu, not AmenYahu. No biggie, just a little note.

Amenyahu (26 April 2006)

By the way, it's Amenyahu, not AmenYahu.
<oops> Sorry, I made sure I had the spelling correct, and overlooked making sure that the capitalisation was correct. </oops>
No biggie, just a little note.
Or a little "y"? <grin>
Philip J. Rayment 09:20, 26 April 2006 (GMT)

Messiah

I find this sentence in the article: " However the Bible explains that his mother is going to be a virgin (Isaiah 7:14-15 ); "

I understand that this website is mainly written from a Christian viewpoint and this is how they interpret that passage, but in the interests of accuracy I really think this sentence should be removed. Judaism has no such doctrine that the mother of the messiah will be a virgin. No Jewish commentators interpret the passage in Isaiah as referring to the messiah and no Jewish scholars accept the translation of almah as "virgin." (Rather, it means "young woman.") The article as it stands is misleading in that the reader thinks this is a position of Judaism.

I didn't take the liberty of making the edit myself since I'm a newcomer here and wanted to explain everything.

MosheEmes 06:23, 24 April 2012 (PDT)

In my opinion, this is correct: Contemporary Judaism do not accept the translation of almah as "virgin". The word betulah is used instead. Christians accept this translation and understand that the Jews who translated the Septuagint also had this same vision (translating almah to partenos). However this is not the view of any of the sects of Judaism today. As this is an article about Judaism, I think the vision of Judaism is that it should be placed. Some Jewish texts talks about two Messiah: Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David. I would add at least two more Messiah claimants in the list: Shabbetai Zvi and Jacob Joseph Frank. Luiz Alexandre Silva 13:06, 24 April 2012 (PDT)
I agree as well. In fact, not only is the translation of "virgin" in the Old Testament very questionable, but it is in the New Testament as well. I wrote a note criticizing Catholicism and mentioning my concerns about a Biblical basis for the Virgin Birth several months ago.[1] With regard to the OT, almah is only used 7 times, as opposed to bethulah which is used frequently. In fact, almah appears to likely be a misspelling of almanah, meaning widow, as seen from Leviticus 26:14: "A widow <'almanah>, or a divorced woman <garash>, or profane <chalal>, or an harlot <zanah>, these shall he not take <laqach>: but he shall take <laqach> a virgin <bathuwlah> of his own people <`am> to wife <'ishshah>." It makes no sense for the writer to have intended the word virgin and then use a rare term like almah when bethulah is constantly used to refer to virgin. But if you look at the New Testament, the word "parthenos" also appears very questionable as meaning virgin. In fact, 1 Corinthians 7 is often misinterpreted as referring to virgins when a simple reading of the chapter shows the subject matter is actually the divorced/widows, and therefore it should've been written that Mary was a widow, not a virgin, in both the OT and NT. It's kind of silly this mistake has been getting made for so many centuries in translation as it's pretty obvious when you look at it. --Jzyehoshua 12:58, 26 April 2012 (PDT)
I just edited boldly and removed that virgin birth reference. Also, concerning Messianic Prophecies, I've always liked the Teaching Hearts chart, which even shows which ones are specifically Jewish as well.[2] --Jzyehoshua 13:06, 26 April 2012 (PDT)


In my understanting, and in accordance with my faith, almah is well translated as parthenos. But I understand the fact that Judaism does not believe so. So, I think the sentence is not appropriate to the context of the article. The article should show the Jewish position only. Perhaps the Christian position could be written as a footnote. From what I studied, there is actually no term in Biblical Hebrew, neither almah nor bethulah, which means a woman with the intact hymen. And almah means a young woman of marriageable age, which most probably would be a virgin. The prophet, in my opinion, used the best term, to meet the present situation in Isaiah and recording a prophecy of a future event. At the same time. Luiz Alexandre Silva 13:13, 26 April 2012 (PDT)
Well, I agree that almah is well translated as parthenos. I just don't think either one means virgin, but that BOTH should've been translated widow, in both the OT and NT. Parthenos is used most often in the NT in 1 Corinthians 7, where a reading of the chapter shows it should've been translated widow, not virgin. I like to look at how a Hebrew or Greek word is used throughout the Bible to see what the translation should be when there's conflict. I use a program called PowerBible CD to do this, but it can be seen elsewhere as well, by clicking on the Bible books and going to Interlinear view at BibleStudyTools.com's pages.[3][4][5]
This is the Interlinear for 1 Corinthians 7 that I am seeing. Verses like 5, 10-16, 27, and 39-40 clearly show the chapter is not talking about virgins but widows/divorced (specifically named in v. 8). Parthenos should've been translated widow, not virgin, by the KJV translators.
1 Corinthians 7:1 ¶ Now <de> concerning <peri> the things whereof <hos> ye wrote <grapho> unto me <moi>: It is good <kalos> for a man <anthropos> not <me> to touch <haptomai> a woman <gune>.
2 Nevertheless <dia> <de>, to avoid fornication <porneia>, let <echo> every man <hekastos> have <echo> his own <heautou> wife <gune>, and <kai> let <echo> every woman <hekastos> have <echo> her own <idios> husband <aner>.
3 Let <apodidomi> the husband <aner> render <apodidomi> unto the wife <gune> due <opheilo> benevolence <eunoia>: and <de> likewise <homoios> also <kai> the wife <gune> unto the husband <aner>.
4 The wife <gune> hath <exousiazo> not <ou> power <exousiazo> of her own <idios> body <soma>, but <alla> the husband <aner>: and <de> likewise <homoios> also <kai> the husband <aner> hath <exousiazo> not <ou> power <exousiazo> of his own <idios> body <soma>, but <alla> the wife <gune>.
5 Defraud ye <apostereo> not <me> one the other <allelon>, except <ei me ti> <an> it be <tis> with <ek> consent <sumphonos> for <pros> a time <kairos>, that <hina> ye may give yourselves <scholazo> to fasting <nesteia> and <kai> prayer <proseuche>; and <kai> come <sunerchomai> together <epi> <autos> again <palin>, that <hina me> Satan <Satanas> tempt <peirazo> you <humas> not <hina me> for <dia> your <humon> incontinency <akrasia>.
6 But <de> I speak <lego> this <touto> by <kata> permission <suggnome>, and not <ou> of <kata> commandment <epitage>.
7 For <gar> I would <thelo> that all <pas> men <anthropos> were <einai> even <kai> as <hos> I myself <emautou>. But <alla> every man <hekastos> hath <echo> his proper <idios> gift <charisma> of <ek> God <theos>, one <hos> <men> after this manner <houto>, and <de> another <hos> after that <houto>.
8 I say <lego> therefore <de> to the unmarried <agamos> and <kai> widows <chera>, It is <esti> good <kalos> for them <autos> if <ean> they abide <meno> even <kago> as <hos> I <kago>.
9 But <de> if <ei> they <egkrateuomai> cannot <ou> contain <egkrateuomai>, let them marry <gameo>: for <gar> it is <esti> better <kreitton> to marry <gameo> than <e> to burn <puroo>.
10 ¶ And <de> unto the married <gameo> I command <paraggello>, yet not <ou> I <ego>, but <alla> the Lord <kurios>, Let <chorizo> not <me> the wife <gune> depart <chorizo> from <apo> her husband <aner>:
11 But <de> and <kai> if <ean> she depart <chorizo>, let her remain <meno> unmarried <agamos>, or <e> be reconciled <katallasso> to her husband <aner>: and <kai> let <aphiemi> not <me> the husband <aner> put away <aphiemi> his wife <gune>.
12 But <de> to the rest <loipoy> speak <lego> I <ego>, not <ou> the Lord <kurios>: If any <ei tis> brother <adelphos> hath <echo> a wife <gune> that believeth not <apistos>, and <kai> she <autos> be pleased <suneudokeo> to dwell <oikeo> with <meta> him <autos>, let him <aphiemi> not <me> put <aphiemi> her <autos> away <aphiemi>.
13 And <kai> the woman <gune> which <hostis> hath <echo> an husband <aner> that believeth not <apistos>, and <kai> if he <autos> be pleased <suneudokeo> to dwell <oikeo> with <meta> her <autos>, let her <aphiemi> not <me> leave <aphiemi> him <autos>.
14 For <gar> the unbelieving <apistos> husband <aner> is sanctified <hagiazo> by <en> the wife <gune>, and <kai> the unbelieving <apistos> wife <gune> is sanctified <hagiazo> by <en> the husband <aner>: else <ara> <epei> were <esti> your <humon> children <teknon> unclean <akathartos>; but <de> now <nun> are they <esti> holy <hagios>.
15 But <de> if <ei> the unbelieving <apistos> depart <chorizo>, let him depart <chorizo>. A brother <adelphos> or <e> a sister <adelphe> is <douloo> not <ou> under bondage <douloo> in <en> such <toioutos> cases: but <de> God <theos> hath called <kaleo> us <hemas> to <en> peace <eirene>.
16 For <gar> what <tis> knowest thou <eido>, O wife <gune>, whether <ei> thou shalt save <sozo> thy husband <aner>? or <e> how <tis> knowest thou <eido>, O man <aner>, whether <ei> thou shalt save <sozo> thy wife <gune>?
17 ¶ But <ei me> as <hos> God <theos> hath distributed <merizo> to every man <hekastos>, as <hos> the Lord <kurios> hath called <kaleo> every one <hekastos>, so <houto> let him walk <peripateo>. And <kai> so <houto> ordain I <diatasso> in <en> all <pas> churches <ekklesia>.
18 Is <kaleo> any man <tis> called <kaleo> being circumcised <peritemno>? let him <epispaomai> not <me> become uncircumcised <epispaomai>. Is <kaleo> any <tis> called <kaleo> in <en> uncircumcision <akrobustia>? let him <peritemno> not <me> be circumcised <peritemno>.
19 Circumcision <peritome> is <esti> nothing <oudeis>, and <kai> uncircumcision <akrobustia> is <esti> nothing <oudeis>, but <alla> the keeping <teresis> of the commandments <entole> of God <theos>.
20 Let <meno> every man <hekastos> abide <meno> in <en> the same <taute> calling <klesis> wherein <en> <hos> he was called <kaleo>.
21 Art thou called <kaleo> being a servant <doulos>? care <melo> <soi> not <me> for it <melo>: but <alla> if <ei kai> thou mayest <dunamai> be made <ginomai> free <eleutheros>, use <chraomai> it rather <mallon>.
22 For <gar> he that is called <kaleo> in <en> the Lord <kurios>, being a servant <doulos>, is <esti> the Lord's <kurios> freeman <apeleutheros>: likewise <homoios> also <kai> he that is called <kaleo>, being free <eleutheros>, is <esti> Christ's <Christos> servant <doulos>.
23 Ye are bought <agorazo> with a price
24 Brethren <adelphos>, let <meno> every man <hekastos>, wherein <en> <hos> he is called <kaleo>, therein <en> <touto> abide <meno> with <para> God <theos>.
¶ 25 Now <de> concerning <peri> virgins <parthenos> I have <echo> no <ou> commandment <epitage> of the Lord <kurios>: yet <de> I give <didomi> my judgment <gnome>, as <hos> one that hath obtained mercy <eleeo> of <hupo> the Lord <kurios> to be <einai> faithful <pistos>.
26 I suppose <nomizo> therefore <oun> that this <touto> is <huparcho> good <kalos> for <dia> the present <enistemi> distress <anagke>, I say, that <hoti> it is good <kalos> for a man <anthropos> so <houto> to be <einai>.
27 Art thou bound <deo> unto a wife <gune>? seek <zeteo> not <me> to be loosed <lusis>. Art thou loosed <luo> from <apo> a wife <gune>? seek <zeteo> not <me> a wife <gune>.
28 But <de> and <kai> if <ean> thou marry <gameo>, thou hast <hamartano> not <ou> sinned <hamartano>; and <kai> if <ean> a virgin <parthenos> marry <gameo>, she hath <hamartano> not <ou> sinned <hamartano>. Nevertheless <de> such <toioutos> shall have <echo> trouble <thlipsis> in the flesh <sarx>: but <de> I <ego> spare <pheidomai> you <humon>.
29 But <de> this <touto> I say <phemi>, brethren <adelphos>, the time <kairos> is short <sustello>: it remaineth <esti> <loipon>, that <hina> both <kai> they that have <echo> wives <gune> be <o> as though <hos> they had <echo> none <me>;
30 And <kai> they that weep <klaio>, as <hos> though they wept <klaio> not <me>; and <kai> they that rejoice <chairo>, as <hos> though they rejoiced <chairo> not <me>; and <kai> they that buy <agorazo>, as <hos> though they possessed <katecho> not <me>;
31 And <kai> they that use <chraomai> this <toutou> world <kosmos>, as <hos> not <me> abusing <katachraomai> it: for <gar> the fashion <schema> of this <touto> world <kosmos> passeth away <parago>.
32 But <de> I would have <einai> <thelo> you <humas> without carefulness <amerimnos>. He that is unmarried <agamos> careth <merimnao> for the things that belong to <ho> the Lord <kurios>, how <pos> he may please <aresko> the Lord <kurios>:
33 But <de> he that is married <gameo> careth <merimnao> for the things that are <ho> of the world <kosmos>, how <pos> he may please <aresko> his wife <gune>.
34 There is difference also between <merizo> a wife <gune> and <kai> a virgin <parthenos>. The unmarried woman <agamos> careth for <merimnao> the things <ho> of the Lord <kurios>, that <hina> she may be <o> holy <hagios> both <kai> in body <soma> and <kai> in spirit <pneuma>: but <de> she that is married <gameo> careth <merimnao> for the things <ho> of the world <kosmos>, how <pos> she may please <aresko> her husband <aner>.
35 And <de> this <touto> I speak <lego> for <pros> your <humon> own <autos> profit <sumphero>; not <ou> that <hina> I may cast <epiballo> a snare <brochos> upon you <humin>, but <alla> for that which <pros> is comely <euschemon>, and <kai> that ye may attend upon <euprosedros> the Lord <kurios> without distraction <aperispastos>.
¶ 36 But <de> if any man <ei tis> think <nomizo> that he behaveth himself uncomely <aschemoneo> toward <epi> his <autos> virgin <parthenos>, if <ean> she pass the flower of her age <huperakmos> <o>, and <kai> need <opheilo> so <houto> require <ginomai>, let him do <poieo> what <hos> he will <thelo>, he sinneth <hamartano> not <ou>: let them marry <gameo>.
37 Nevertheless <de> he <hos> that standeth <histemi> stedfast <hedraios> in <en> his heart <kardia>, having <echo> no <me> necessity <anagke>, but <de> hath <echo> power <exousia> over <peri> his own <idios> will <thelema>, and <kai> hath <krino> so <touto> decreed <krino> in <en> his <autos> heart <kardia> that he will keep <tereo> his <heautou> virgin <parthenos>, doeth <poieo> well <kalos>.
38 So <hoste> then <kai> he that giveth her in marriage <ekgamizo> doeth <poieo> well <kalos>; but <de> he that giveth her <ekgamizo> not <me> in marriage <ekgamizo> doeth <poieo> better <kreisson>.
39 ¶ The wife <gune> is bound <deo> by the law <nomos> <epi> as long <chronos> as <hosos> her <autos> husband <aner> liveth <zao>; but <de> if <ean> her <autos> husband <aner> be dead <koimao>, she is <esti> at liberty <eleutheros> to be married <gameo> to whom <hos> she will <thelo>; only <monon> in <en> the Lord <kurios>.
40 But <de> she is <esti> happier <makarios> if <ean> she <meno> so <houto> abide <meno>, after <kata> my <emos> judgment <gnome>: and <de> I think <dokeo> also <kago> that I have <echo> the Spirit <pneuma> of God <theos>.
This is the passage Catholics use to decide on priestly celibacy too. Because they translated parthenos as virgin instead of widow, they not only concluded Mary was a virgin, per the Nicene Creed, but that priests should be celibate based on 1 Corinthians 7. I would argue both doctrines are unBiblical.
--Jzyehoshua 13:31, 26 April 2012 (PDT)
Revelation 14:4 is another area where the word parthenos is translated virgins but can't mean virgins as we think of them, because it says, "These <houtos> are they <eisi> which <hos> were <moluno> not <ou> defiled <moluno> with <meta> women <gune>; for <gar> they are <eisi> virgins <parthenos>. These <houtos> are they <eisi> which <ho> follow <akoloutheo> the Lamb <arnion> whithersoever <hopou> <an> he goeth <hupago>. These <houtos> were redeemed <agorazo> from <apo> among men <anthropos>, being the firstfruits <aparche> unto God <theos> and <kai> to the Lamb <arnion>." However, Biblically, marriage is "honourable in all, and the bed undefiled" (Hebrews 13:4) and "Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the LORD." (Proverbs 18:22) The verse makes no sense if referring to virgins as it would be calling marriage "defil[ing] with women" which is not Biblical. It makes sense only if referring to those who are widowed and do not re-marry to focus on God in holiness per 1 Corinthians 7. --Jzyehoshua 13:46, 26 April 2012 (PDT)