Talk:Evidence for the Israelite Sojourn in Egypt
- 1 Evidence
- 2 Please provide references and evidence that the Hyksos were caananites
- 3 Moses was not a Caananite, he was a Hebrew
- 4 If Moses was in the 18th dynasty, it does not make sense that the 18th dynasty Pharaohs would be named after him
- 5 Just as the word for 'pyramid' may have had different connotations in different dynasties, the word 'chariot' may also have had different connotations when used in different periods
- 6 This is an article that looks at the evidence albeit through creationist eyes
- 7 Please make use of discussion pages before making statements that contradict other contributors
- 8 Please allow for the fact that even Bible based creationists may interpret some evidence differently
- 9 Please do not delete other people's work without making a note on the relevant discussion page and giving the reason with some supportive evidence.
- 10 Validate your work by showing how it fits into the "Big Picture" or a "timeline"
- 11 Evidence for Moses around 15th century B.C.
- 12 New edit
- 13 Suggestion: Page Split
Merely reporting the existence of Egyptian artifacts is not really giving evidence.
Please provide references and evidence that the Hyksos were caananites
Moses was not a Caananite, he was a Hebrew
If Moses was in the 18th dynasty, it does not make sense that the 18th dynasty Pharaohs would be named after him
If Moses was born in the 12th dynasty and lead the Israelites out of Egypt in the 13th dynasty crippling Egypt and making it vulnerable to invasion by the Hyksos, then it would make sense that the 17th and 18th dynasty pharaohs might be named after Moses (eg Ahmose I Kahmose Thutmose I Thutmose II Thutmose III).
Just as the word for 'pyramid' may have had different connotations in different dynasties, the word 'chariot' may also have had different connotations when used in different periods
one author wrote, pre-Alexandrian Jews would never have used the word "pyramid" to describe their work. The best we can surmise is that they participated in mudbrick construction of large structures, such as mustabas or towers. The Egyptians had a period of successful pyramid construction, of which the Great Pyramid is their greatest work. The Egyptian culture is also noted as having reached a pinnacle and thereafter rapidly declined in both quality and technology. Mudbrick construction could not achieve the same quality as before. Pyramid building was on the decline or had ceased by the time the Hebrews were slaves.
The same author also argues very strongly that the Israelites could not have been in Egypt prior to the 15th dynasty because "chariots" had not been introduced to Egypt.
Using the same argument about the meaning of the work 'Pyramid' the 'chariots' of the 3rd dynasty may have been quite different to the chariots of the 12th and 18th dynasty.
No horse drawn chariots have been found prior to the 15th dynasty. this would tend to suggest that the Exodus took place before the 15th dynasty. One would not expect to find chariots of dynasties prior to the Exodus because they were all destroyed at the time of the exodus. --Drnhawkins 05:52, 10 December 2014 (EST)
This is an article that looks at the evidence albeit through creationist eyes
If you are not a creationist and you do not believe the Bible to be true, please do not edit this post. There are plenty of other places to express your views where people will not want to revert your edits.--Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
This article is about EVIDENCE. --Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
PLEASE NO NOT MAKE STATEMENTS THAT ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY SOME EVIDENCE.
ACCEPTABLE EVIDENCE MAY INCLUDE ANCIENT DOCUMENTS SUCH AS THE BIBLE IF THEY ARE FACTUAL HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS.
PHOTOS MAY BE USED AS EVIDENCE.
AS DATES AND TIME ARE CRITICAL PLEASE DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING WHEN BUILDING AN ARGUEMENT BASED UPON DATES.
PLEASE STATE THE SOURCE OF ALL DATES THAT ARE QUOTED
Please make use of discussion pages before making statements that contradict other contributors
Rather than delete the work of others, perhaps make a discussion about it. If it is clearly wrong, move it to a discussion page and explain why giving the evidence.--Drnhawkins 06:05, 19 April 2014 (EDT)
Please allow for the fact that even Bible based creationists may interpret some evidence differently
An example of this could include the length of time that the Jews were in Egypt (long vs short sojourn)
Please do not delete other people's work without making a note on the relevant discussion page and giving the reason with some supportive evidence.
For example if you state that Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt in the18th dynasty please give sufficient evidence that supports the strength of your assertion.
Validate your work by showing how it fits into the "Big Picture" or a "timeline"
Showing how your assertions fit with other historical character matches or contemporaries is a powerful way or validating your argument.
Evidence for Moses around 15th century B.C.
There is actually evidence for the Exodus occurring in those traditional Biblical dates. See the Soleb Inscription and Ipuwer Papyrus.
As for evidence of the Israelites in Egypt, see the 4-room Israelite houses discovered in Egypt.
Also, the graves for the Exodus do exist, they are in the saudi desert where exploration has been prohibited due to government restrictions, but do show up in satellite photos.
--Jzyehoshua 22:45, 16 November 2014 (EST)
Oh, and the Amarna Tablets are correspondence between Canaanite Kings and Egypt as they describe Israel taking over their land immediately after the Exodus.
--Jzyehoshua 22:58, 16 November 2014 (EST)
Basically what the secular "Biblical archaeologists" did was decide the Bible must be wrong about the crossing of the Red Sea because it's such a huge sea that it would've taken a miracle rather than a natural explanation. So they decided the Israelites must have actually crossed the Reed Sea near the Bitter Lakes through natural wind gusts and tide levels, rather than the huge Gulf of Aqabah through a miracle.
As a result they've been looking for the Exodus on the wrong land mass, on the Sinai Peninsula, instead of where the Bible says it actually occurred, on the massive Arabian Peninsula. At the time however the Sinai Peninsula was part of Egypt so it would have made no sense for the Exodus to occur there, as it was actually a part of Egypt. Scholars ignored that in their attempt to find a natural explanation for the Red Sea crossing. --Jzyehoshua 20:35, 17 November 2014 (EST)
Exodus 13:17-18 mentions that the Israelites avoided the "land of the Phillistines" at the start of the Exodus, showing the starting point of the Exodus was actually very close to Israel and the Arabian Peninsula. Also, another waypoint of the Exodus, Ezion-Geber, seen from Numbers 33:35, is a city on the north end of the Gulf of Aqabah - NOT on the Sinai Peninsula. What is more, the Apostle Paul even said Mount Sinai was in Arabia in Galatians 4:25. --Jzyehoshua 20:56, 17 November 2014 (EST)
I just decided to put in some writing I did elsewhere. I just put it in a quick section, didn't want to bother splitting it up and figure out where each bit of information belongs. Feel free to move it to the appropriate places on the page. --Jzyehoshua 22:14, 19 November 2014 (EST)
Suggestion: Page Split
Personally I'd suggest splitting the page and make a new page, maybe titled "FAQ about the Israelite Exodus" or something like that. A lot of the content on this page is not really about evidence but just frequently asked questions surrounding the Exodus, rather than actual evidence. --Jzyehoshua 22:36, 19 November 2014 (EST)
For example the following sections do not actually contain any evidence, just thoughts or detail about the Israelite Exodus. I'd recommend keeping the page to a strict presentation of the evidence, personally.
- Why are there so many different theories about the Egyptian correlates of Biblical Characters in Egypt?
- The problem with the Biblical Chronology
- The problem with Egyptian Records
- The destruction of Egypt's monuments
- When did Israel's Sojourn in Egypt begin?
- How long did the Israelites Sojourn in Egypt?
- How many Israelites were there?
- Who were the Pharaohs of the Oppression?
- Which Princess found Moses in a basket amongst the reeds of the Nile?
- Was Moses raised to become the next Pharaoh?
- Could Moses have ruled over Egypt?
- Could Amenemhet IV actually be Moses?
- Which Pharaoh did Moses flee from?
- How does Egyptian History fit with the Bible?
A lot of those are Frequently Asked Questions about the Exodus, but don't actually contain evidence FOR the Exodus in the sections. I'd recommend a page split just to make the page more concise in presenting the clear evidence that exists. Right now there are just way too many sections. Ordinarily I'd be tempted to make separate sections for the Soleb Inscription, Ipuwer Papyrus, Israelite Houses, and Amarna Tablets, but there are just too many sections already. Anyway, just presenting the suggestion to see what people think. --Jzyehoshua 22:43, 19 November 2014 (EST)